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but the mass of humanity and i've seen this in your interview with bill moyers when somebody suggested a return to new deal type politics and institutions seems to be rejected that is not a possibility. we can't reverse the trajectory we have now. so given that, do you have any notifications to how it can be improved, how it can stop the depletion? but would you recommend? >> i don't mean this is a copout at all, but there's a lot of intellectual work people have to do. i really strongly think it's a mistake for people on the left, liberals, whatever you call them to say let's go back to the 1950s. mostly because i don't think those jobs exist anymore. not enough of them. even when people are saying this is the return of manufacturing and how great i was. have you looked at the wages now being paid in detroit for the newly hired people? is $13, $15? >> in norway, quite successful societies, salaries are very high. germany as well. >> normally is different because of oil. >> i think sweden and germany -- >> in japan. i'd be careful about drawing too much for japan. i think that sweden, denmark a
was reminded of a wonderful conversation that took place probably 30 plus years ago between bill moyers and one of, a former justice, justice blackmun, talking about the constitution. answer this question sort of goes to at what's at the heart of constitutionalism and rule of law, and looking back at the list of things that you listed. in the course of that conversation after a long discussion about the constitutionalism, a center. essentially blackmun turns to moyers and says it's really the preamble that breathes life into the constitution. and i wondered whether that's a point of view that you hold and whether you think it has relevance in the situation we're talking about now. >> , preamble, we the people and united states, et cetera, i used to be able to quote it, i don't think i can now. anyway, it's written down. and the preamble is important saying we the people. but is not the only thing. and i say that because i do think, i had a very interesting conversation in china, i thought. i've gone there twice. the first time was a few years ago, maybe eight or 10, when we went to beijing and
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